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So.... I've been having serious issues coming up lately with the amount of people that think casual of strangers is ok.
I've always been sensitive about this and quick to assert myself because I have fibromyalgia, and my skin is VERY sensitive to light touch. It actually downright hurts, but I'm wondering if "normal" women have issues with this happening too. I had problems with this at the last CR party, I have problems with this at work all the time even where men are specifically "not allowed" to touch me.
I was out last night in Seattle, dressed in lingerie at a bar where I was helping change the stage between sets at a friend's burlesque show. After the show some guy by the bar grabbed my arm (bad bad idea, one of the most painfully sensitive places on my body) and asked me where I worked. I started pulling my arm away, and he grabbed it tighter. At this point I pulled away hard and said "It's not OK to touch!" and then politely followed with "I work at the Tip Top down in Humboldt county, if you're ever there, stop by, it's a fun place".
I know that sounds a little bipolar, but he was a really cute guy, I didn't sense him being creepy or mean, just stupid and ignorant. If he had said something like "hey pretty girl, I'd like to know where you work, can I buy you a drink" he might have gotten a lap dance on the spot, but no, he had to grab.
I'm worried that I might be going overboard and snapping at people for doing this. The problem isn't even exclusively with men, I've had some women that can't get it either. Do you other women out there have a problem with this casual touching, especially in bars or at parties? How do you handle it?
I'm talking about the arm grab, the hand on the waist, the playful knock on the shoulder, hand on my thigh or knee if we're sitting down and I just met you situations. How can I get the point across to people that it's not ok to touch me without coming off as being bitchy?
I've always been sensitive about this and quick to assert myself because I have fibromyalgia, and my skin is VERY sensitive to light touch. It actually downright hurts, but I'm wondering if "normal" women have issues with this happening too. I had problems with this at the last CR party, I have problems with this at work all the time even where men are specifically "not allowed" to touch me.
I was out last night in Seattle, dressed in lingerie at a bar where I was helping change the stage between sets at a friend's burlesque show. After the show some guy by the bar grabbed my arm (bad bad idea, one of the most painfully sensitive places on my body) and asked me where I worked. I started pulling my arm away, and he grabbed it tighter. At this point I pulled away hard and said "It's not OK to touch!" and then politely followed with "I work at the Tip Top down in Humboldt county, if you're ever there, stop by, it's a fun place".
I know that sounds a little bipolar, but he was a really cute guy, I didn't sense him being creepy or mean, just stupid and ignorant. If he had said something like "hey pretty girl, I'd like to know where you work, can I buy you a drink" he might have gotten a lap dance on the spot, but no, he had to grab.
I'm worried that I might be going overboard and snapping at people for doing this. The problem isn't even exclusively with men, I've had some women that can't get it either. Do you other women out there have a problem with this casual touching, especially in bars or at parties? How do you handle it?
I'm talking about the arm grab, the hand on the waist, the playful knock on the shoulder, hand on my thigh or knee if we're sitting down and I just met you situations. How can I get the point across to people that it's not ok to touch me without coming off as being bitchy?
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California
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 7:17 PMMy opinion? There are people that just are touchy-feely. I had a guy once at the casino bar in Trinidad touch me and i was shocked. "oh, it must be difficult being so beautiful" and he stroked my face..and touched my leg. I didn't know how to react because I have been..well..sheltered..it's no joke. I couldn't believe he touched me so intimately. Then he said "i have a motor home out in the parking lot..want to have some fun?"
So I often ask..is THAT normal? He touched me then wanted to invite me to his motor home? ewwww..he wasn't cute...
Anyway...in case you are curious..i replied..."can my boyfriend come?" hoping he'd be freaked out...he said " a threesome?!!!"
Anyway..I went running and hid..but ewww...you're right..why do people touch like that? Do i LOOK like i want to be touched? I feel for ya Star...
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 8:43 PMStar, thank you for bringing up this important topic. Firstly I'd like to say that it's NEVER bitchy to set your own body off limits to others. Anybody who calls you bitchy for communicating your limits is an asshole, and I'd venture to guess a misogynistic/sexist one at that. No one is entitled to touch someone else without permission.
Even though the waiver specifically says to ask before touching, and there were banners up that said the same thing as well, it seems that a lot of people didn't respect that rule. Although I didn't experience this problem myself (I was accidentally bumped into and brushed past more than anything else), I know you were not the only one who received unwanted touch.
I wonder what further steps can be taken to help prevent this problem? Just reiterating repeatedly that you have to get permission before it's okay to touch AT ALL, regardless of how trivial one might think the touch would be? Not sure.
As far as personally telling people that it's not okay to touch, I'd say just tell them in whatever way you want. If they don't like it, it's their problem.
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 9:18 PMHmm, that's a tough one for me. Personally I'm not really bothered by light touch or even sudden hugs, unless someone is really smelly/dirty/creepy. I'm kind of a feely touchy person myself, and don't think anything of affectionately touching someone's shoulder. When I know someone (depending on context & personality) I have been known to spank without warning. And have also received the same. What I really have trouble with is touching that goes on too long, too deep, or any kind of boob/ass/crotch touching or insistence on kissing. Both years at burning man whoever was the greeter pretty much forced me to kiss them and man did it not feel good. If he wasn't a creepy 50 year old maybe it wouldn't have bothered me so much. But hey, we all have our preferences.
But I feel ya. Perhaps there's a way to indicate your comfort zone without being bitchy, unless of course they don't get it the first time. Then just kick em in the balls :p -
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Fri, October 26, 2007 - 10:37 PMI don't mind people who know me touching me (translating that to we've hung out at least a few times, on our own) because most of them either know I have fibromyalgia and know my boundries, or know I'm not trying to be an ass when I tell them that I need to not be touched in a certain way. A stranger or not very well known to me person will not get a warm reception if they just run up and hug me, but if they ask me if I'd like a hug, I'm very often open to it.
I feel you too with the too long, too deep, boob/ass/crotch thing. Strangely enough, outside of a few high school experiences, as an adult, I think I've had more women than men make those assumptions with me, the crotch grabbing on the first date for example, or even worse, I've had a few women take my hand and stick it in THEIR crotch. YUCK! I'll touch that when I'm good and ready thanks.
Thanks everyone for the support on me setting my boundries. I just don't like the "your being a jerk" look I get from most people when I set them.
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 12:18 AMThis is something that clearly has a big influence on your current state of being. now, I've known for years that it's not ok to handle entertainers, like at the Tip Top. However, over the years at many locations, including the Tip Top before I stopped going up to Eureka for a few years, I've been hugged, and even kissed, by the entertainers. for that reason, I will ask a woman if it's ok to get a hug, or something like that. However, AT NO POINT have I ever heard that it's alright to walk into some place and begin giving a total stranger the sort of intimate physical contact that normally only occurs between intimate partners. In other words, the burlesque show, the Masque, that burlesque show you're helping out at, etc... ALL of them are places that you should reasonable expect the same immunity to molestation and harassment that you could expect if you worked in, say, a doctor's office. (no doctor/patient roleplaying jokes here please, I'm trying to be serious.)
Am I in the wrong time period? should a woman NOT still be treated like a lady, until she proves herself as something other by committing crimes? an entertainer is NOT committing crimes, and deserves to be respected no less than my mother, my sister, or any other woman I respect and appreciate.
out of curiosity, why aren't the bouncers making examples of some of these people? one example per week, or something like that, ought to be enough to make a BIG impression on the other folks that might consider being too friendly... -
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 1:49 AMI love it when customers or other people in general ask, especially nicely, for permission to touch or hug, instead of just doing it. It's flattering to know that someone has an interest in you. The bouncers will kick people out, but we usually handle it ourselves if it's just a small overstep by a cust. Usually when I say something to a touchy guy at work I get an apology, it's the ones out at the bars, etc, that tend to not take it well. We'll let the other girls know if a guy tends to be grabby, and if they don't listen to us, and ignore our warnings, then it goes to management. Word spreads pretty quickly between the girls and management, so if we know a guy is a pain, he'll get watched by the guys, and we'll stay an arms length away. -
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 2:45 AMand if you're at a bar, let the bouncer know. I used to be one.
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 12:45 PMI had another friend with the same health problem who responded to one of my boisterous hugs with a little "ouch" and some quiet reminders. I had no problem with that, it wasn't at all rude.
As far as strangers touching, there's nothing at all wrong with a simple, "please ask before you touch me" and a smile. And, yes, I have many more women gropers than men! If a man grabbed my arm, though, I would probably feel a bit freaked out. That's REALLY not ok. There is something about that that feels like aggression when it's a strong grip. At past Risque' events, that's only happened to me with one man, who no longer attends, and it felt scary, especially after he'd already been chastised.
I hope I wasn't too forward with my affection last time I saw you! :) If I ever am, please let me know. You're such a lovely girl, and so fun to be with, it's hard not to throw my arms around you!
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sat, October 27, 2007 - 4:08 PMSimple explanation:
moth ---------------------------->> flame
And that's why events are so important. We're a wounded world, seeking healing in each other's eyes, arms, embrace. We need to know that we're held, not alone, accepted for whatever the fuck we might be.
People who touch without asking simply have no idea of where they stop and others begin. They are so hungry to fill the void within with something from without that they don't think to ask. They have not notion of their own worth and value, no boundaries of their own. How can they respect another's?
Trained staff, in a supporting environment, goes a long way to mitigate that. People modeling the behavior in plain sight, often, kindly and compassionately, does too. If there aren't people to create and hold the space, the guests can't be expected to comply. We're often told not to do things while we watch authority figures do exactly what they tell us not to; hypocrisy like that is bitter in the heart. Makes us behave poorly.
I was in the staff room before the event and one of the staff members reached out and pulled a toy I had at my side right out of its holder. I was not asked. I was stunned. All I could do was smile and say, "No no no no no no no. We never touch anything or anyone without asking." We all learn somehow; all of us make mistakes, especially at first, and especially in largely uncharted territory like public displays of sexuality in permissive environments. Again, I say that the importance of trained, competent staff cannot, MUST not, be underrated. And this is how the world gets healed, one asked-for touch at a time....
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 11:03 AMStar, very seriously, I would consider carrying a stun gun - the kind that you can press the trigger and zaps leap between the prongs. When they pause without touching you, which they will, you can just shake your head no. If you want to explain - perhaps give them one word "fybromyalgia" and let them figure it out for themselves...
why should you have to friggin explain it over and over for each friggin person?
I don't have your condition, but I have other stuff going on, and I don't compelled to fill everyone in on what is always going on with me... -
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Sun, October 28, 2007 - 11:37 AMTee hee... a stun gun. That's a thought...
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Re: To touch or not to touch, that is the question...
Wed, October 31, 2007 - 2:58 PMWell whether in public ... and especially at a play party.. or any public fuction
I have always shown respect and asked first.
I remember once asking if it was ok to touch someone...
and they answered, but was unsure of if that answer meant NO or Yes...
So I did not... It is a thing of respect...
Respect for another persons boundaries or their body is most important.
